Edinburgh (hear, hear)—that we have men there, although some of them choose to extinguish themselves (laughter),-who are the honour of the country, and the lights of the Church-(cheers)-and who have produced a set of students worthy of their tutors and teachers. On this subject I never heard any complaint before, aud I do confess that I was absolutely surprised at two or three reverend gentlemen rising in this house, and declaring that the Free Church College in Edinburgh has been tried and found wanting. (Cries of "No, no.") I say, so far as I could gather it, this was the import of their statements; and I appeal to the house if this was not the sum and substance of the remarks which more than one of those gentlemen made. ("No," and Hear.) It is also said that we have not students to fill our vacant places; but a sufficient answer has been made to that statement by Dr Cunningham, who told you that we have more than three to one for every vacancy, -(hear)-that for twenty vacancies annually in the Church the College can supply fifty. (Hear.) It is said we have no statistics;-that is the answer we make to that objection. But then we are told this is not enough; we must be prepared, according to the favourite expression of the reverend Doctor, for taking possession of the length and breadth of the land. Now, I admit that it would be a most desirable thing to take possession of the length and breadth of the land; but how can this be done, unless by having men qualified by their piety, their principles, and their learning, above all their competitors? (Hear, hear.) If ever the scheme is to be realised, it must be by means of raising the standard of the clergy. But supposing that we had ten times the number of students we possess,-suppose we had, according to the exaggerated estimate of the reverend Doctor, fifty colleges(laughter, and cries of "Professors")—well, fifty professors,―suppose we had as many young men as fifty professors could undertake to teach, I say, that unless they are men who are thoroughly educated, I would rather see the tenth part of the number go forth from the hall, and gradually take possession of the ground and maintain it, than I should wish to keep up the empty boast of taking possession of the length and breadth of the land for half a century, when, at the end of that time, there was a certainty that they would be compelled to abandon it. (Cheers.) Another argument is this, Oh! let us tread in the steps of our forefathers; we are a national Church! The national Church has her national Universities; and we must have a national College at each of the University seats! Now, let us look at the substance of things, and not the shadow. We know that Knox advocated the establishing of a college in every large town; but we are now in different circumstances. Then we were not only the national Church in point of theory, but in point of fact. (Hear, hear.) There were then no Dissenters in the land; we had the youth of the land and the entire population of the country in our possession. Now, with all our boasting, we have not more than a third or fourth part of the whole population-(Marks of dissent, especially from Mr Carment)-well, the proportion is certainly much larger in the district of my reverend friend; but observe the difference of our circumstances. In the days of Knox a journey from Inverness to Edinburgh was a labour of trouble and expense; whereas in our time it is altogether different; and it is not fair to press upon men the examples of our ancestors, now that we are in circumstances in which the common sense of our ancestors would have led them to act as we are doing. (Cheers.) I quite concur in the unanswerable argument of Dr Buchanan, as to the absolute necessity of keeping up the standard of theological education, and the absolute incompatibility of doing this in present circumstances with more than our central College. If we had the men and the money, I would still, in present circumstances, not come to a different conclusion; but I may admit that it might be a decidedly desirable thing to do so; still, admitting that, we have not the men. Were there fifty professors,and we had difficulty to catch one, and he has escaped from us-(laughter)-I think this a pretty strong argument, for it may be impossible to supply his place; but if the difficulty be so great of filling one vacancy in such a way as to satisfy the wants and desires of the Church, what if we had even ten places, instead of one, to fill up? -the thing would be absolutely hopeless. (Hear, hear.) It is altogether absurd to say, that because men-and I make the remark with all deference to the ministers of this Church,-are well fitted for discharging the duties of parish ministers, they are therefore qualified for the duties of professors. The reverend Doctor has

spoken as if professors "were as thick as blackberries." (Laughter.) I cannot help thinking that our friend's conscience was giving him a twinge for leaving his post, and that he feels he cannot justify himself in any other way than by speaking as if professors might be had by the hundred. (Laughter.) But we have not the money; and even if we had, it would be inexpedient to extend our theological institution. We have been taunted with this as a despicable argument. I confess it is an argument I never wish to have recourse to. The reverend gentleman does not deny the statement, however; he only says we have never made an appeal to the public for money. He does not attend the meetings of the Committee so regularly as some other members do, else he would have known that we did make such an appeal, and that it has not been responded to. We are at present very considerably in debt, and I frankly declare that I don't know what hand to turn to for money. (Hear, hear.) But on this subject we are told by the reverend Doctor that we are to guide public opinion, not to follow it; but in matters of money, I tell my reverend friend, we must follow it. (Hear, hear.) Let me tell him, that if we hope to lead public opinion, we must keep within the bounds of prudence and common sense, and not by vague declamation lead the Church into pecuniary difficulties, from which she may never be able to raise herself. (Cheers.) The great danger is that we do not square our ends to our means. Our very success hitherto should teach us to walk tenderly and softly, and not to presume on the continuance of the blessings which, in the providence of God, have been conferred upon us in bypast times. But my friend says,-I am one of those who say, you should walk by faith, and not by sight. He says, I am not one of those who walk by sight. Then say I to the reverend gentleman, Sir, open your eyes and look at the balancesheet of the Committee. (Laughter, and Hear, hear.) That appears to me to be quite a satisfactory argument on that subject. After a few additional remarks on the information afforded by Dr Buchanan as to the English Dissenting Colleges, the learned Sheriff concluded by saying, that if we had money, we should use it in increasing the Sustentation Fund, to which our young men look forward for the means of their independence, and appeal to the public for money to carry on one thoroughly equipped College, in such a manner that any lord's son in the land might think it no discredit to study in it. (Cheers.)

Mr CARMENT made a few remarks to the effect, that public opinion, in the north of Scotland, was all on the side of the extension of the theological hall to Aberdeen. They wanted no new hall; they only wanted the Assembly to carry out its deliberately formed resolution on the subject. He had no fear that the funds would not be forthcoming if they did so. (Hear.)

Mr GRAY of Perth said it had come to be somewhat according to the rule of this debate to make personal disclaimers, and perhaps he might be permitted to make his also. He was neither a professor nor an ex-professor, but he believed he represented a very numerous class, or at least belonged to a great body in this house who were in circumstances peculiarly favourable for discharging their duty as judges in this case. (Hear, hear.) There was no body of men whom he held in higher estimation than those highly eminent men, the Professors in the New College; but while he (Mr G.) was not one of the six-feet-two men (laughter), he felt that he was in a position which they were not; and his reverend friend Dr Buchanan did not by his disclaimer alter the fact that he is a professor, and is surrounded by influences. (Disapprobation.) He trusted that his brethren had a sufficiently good opinion of him, to allow him to finish his sentence before exhibiting their disapprobation of what he was going to say. (Hear.) He would say that man was man ; and while he said that he knew none in this Church so unlikely to be affected by the influence of their position as the worthies, the great divines, of the theological faculty, still, in that position they were; and it was a position which, he would say, for his own part, if he were in it, would make him less confident of the soundness of his judgment, and lead him also to do what he could in the way of stating his case, so as to leave the brethren at liberty to consider the arguments which he had brought forward, without pressing any other argument than what was absolutely necessary to be pressed, when considering his case. Perhaps they would see more distinctly what he meant as he proceeded. He thought that into this discussion there had been pressed some very irrelevant considerations. He must maintain

that the question of expense was altogether irrelevant at this stage of their deliberations. The great bodies of the Presbyteries of the Church had treated it as irrelevant. It appeared from the returns, that they had considered, first the question, whether or not it would be desirable to have more halls than one, leaving the expense to be dealt with afterwards; and it was for the Assembly also, in the first place, to inquire whether the glory of God and the good of this Church, in furnishing and sending forth a Christian ministry sufficient for the exigencies they had to meet, whether these ends would be promoted more fully and completely, if they had more halls than one. If that question were settled in the negative, then on its own merits this controversy was done. But if, on the other hand, they found it was for the advantage of religion, and the more efficient working of the Church, that they should have more halls than one, then, with the Church, the question to be considered was, whether that advantage was within their reach or no; and according as that question was decided, so must be the course of their policy. It was not right policy that the pecuniary question should have the place that had been assigned to it; and his learned friend, the Principal, did an injustice to him (Mr Gray), and to every judge in the case, by throwing in a consideration at this part of their deliberations which could only be considered afterwards. It was all the more manifest that this question was irrelevant, and their friends on the other side ought to feel it to be so, because they themselves wanted more money, not only to pay their debts, --and, by the way, he did not understand about that debt; the College Committee seemed to have been totally ignorant of this debt of £2600, which had burdened them for so many months, and had only opened their eyes to find it out the other day. He had heard it said that perhaps this debt might be a mistake.

Dr CUNNINGHAM said the General Assembly knew it was no mistake. It was openly avowed in the Report.

Mr GRAY was sorry to say that, from the great pressure of business, he had not read the College Report, and consequently did not know what it contained. It was mentioned to him by a friend near him that this debt was said to exist; but as their learned friend the Principal had talked to them about walking by sight on this side of the house, they also might be allowed to say a little about walking by sight on that side of the house. And he would recommend his learned friend to make more use of his eyes than he seemed to do. (Marks of disapprobation.)

Mr GIBSON begged to ask whether the hisses came from the house or the audience; if from the audience, unless given up, he would feel constrained to an adjournment. He was standing up in his own defence, because he was persuaded that Mr Gray did not need his interference to secure for him a hearing.

Mr GRAY was afraid that his reverend friend would do him more harm than good, and perhaps injure the cause he loved, if he went on to insert a long parenthesis into the middle of his speech. (Laughter.) There was another subject pressed upon their consideration which he felt it painful to his own mind to have pressed, and that consideration was, that public opinion was against them. He did not know it before, and would only say, that so far as he had a knowledge of public opinion, so far as the sphere of his own observation went,-public opinion was not against them. He was inclined to say that public opinion was in a more becoming state. The public opinion of the Free Church was not yet formed upon this question; and indeed they had been reminded of the fact by his noble-hearted friend, the reverend Principal, that the public had as yet got no materials upon which to form a judgment on the question. They were reminded that this was the first time, in the presence of the Church and the community, that the subject had been fully and freely discussed; and therefore he would say that he fain hoped, for the credit of the Church, that public opinion would not be formed upon the question before they were supplied with materials for coming to a right conclusion; and he had to say, that having strong conscientious convictions upon this subject, having, in all sincerity, as a minister of Christ's Church, tried to form an opinion upon it, for God's glory and the good of his cause, he felt it to be a cruel thing to press upon him a consideration of this kind, which could have no effect at all in convincing his judgment. He was convinced that his learned friend the Principal, of all men, depended least upon aid of this kind, to give effect to his arguments; but this view having been referred to by his learned friend, and the subject of the pecuniary question having

been pressed upon them so much,-from both of these things, he (Mr G.) had been led to fear that their brethren on the other side felt that their case needed these adventitious supports. He thought it would have been a sign of greater strength if these considerations had been let alone. With a sincere wish to listen to Dr Cunningham and Dr Buchanan, and all the other dear brethren with whom he happened to differ, and to have their ideas set before his mind, that through their aid he might arrive at a knowledge of what was proper to be done in this matter, he would fain hope that he and his friends might claim from the Assembly the right of investigating and commenting upon the views and opinions of those on the other side, and that amidst the collision of intellect which is going on this evening-the brotherly collision-(hear, hear)-the brotherly conflict of argument, between those who love each other with all their hearts,this brotherly conflict would, by the blessing of God, somewhat painful as it might be, be the means of bringing the Church on this question to a safe conclusion. (Cheers). Now, he must say, that to his mind the question had not been stated satisfactorily by Dr Cunningham. He had often recognised the great power of his distinguished friend in stating a question; but, notwithstanding, he was unable to concur in this question as stated by him. It was stated too narrowly. The curriculum must be decided not on a consideration of its bearing merely on theological education, but more extensively, as it bears on an adequate supply of the ministers of the gospel for this Church. His reverend friend, as he (Mr G.) understood, would decide upon the curriculum, having regard only to its bearings on the quality of the ministry. He preferred to decide it, having regard to its bearings both on the quantity and quality of the supply. This had been the use and wont of the Church of Scotland. He did not refer to the time when the curriculum was sinfully relaxed, or to a nominal curriculum, which was no curriculum at all. In Reformation times, what was the curriculum adopted by Knox and his associates in the ministry? Not a curriculum like ours at all,-not a curriculum of eight years; but one by which men, upon short notice, and after undergoing a short process of instruction, were put into the ministry to meet the necessities of the land. And why was that? Just because it was felt that the curriculum must be regulated, not only in consideration of the quality, but also the quantity of the supply. They felt, that to have insisted upon a high curriculum in these circumstances, would have been to prevent the Church from getting ministers at all. His reverend friend, the Principal, stated the question, as he understood, in the same way also as to the extension of the means. The extension of the means was to be decided on in consideration of its bearings on theological education. Now, with great submission, he (Mr Gray) said, No. They must consider the bearing of a plurality of halls, not only on theological education itself,-not only on the literary qualifications of the clergy, but also upon the number of the clergy. They were in great danger of falling into serious error if they adopted the plan of a narrow concentration; and it was his impression that there was some danger of verging towards that extreme if they adopted this Report. He was not prepared, without much farther consideration, to assent to the appointment of two Exegetical Professors as the best possible improvement that could be made on the Edinburgh Hall. He was afraid that they might be in danger of going into the extreme of overrating the importance of the power of exegesis, and that the Church had fallen into a mistake, by giving so much of an exegetical turn to the thoughts and studies of candidates for the ministry, and that too much intellectual criticism had been dragged into the pulpit. He was persuaded that his brethren were aware of this evil; and he would beg the house to consider whether an amount of exegetical training, which might be very suitable for young men of the higher order of mind, might be very suitable for above half-a-dozen out of a hundred students. They knew that exegesis was fitted, when men's minds were occupied with it to a great extent, to disable them from grasping with great theological truths, the effects of this had been seen, and seen amongst the most distinguished literati of some of the evangelical denominations of this country, in loose views about inspiration, and also about the canon. (Hear, hear.) Too high an education in any particular direction, he said, was exceedingly dangerous. Educate a man too highly in any particular direction, and it is very likely to prove disastrous. No doubt, it was very different with those broad and giant intellects, of which they had a specimen in the learned Principal, Dr Cunningham. (Cheers.) He had an

intellectual grasp which could not only go into the depths of criticism and exegesis, but into the great and magnificent depths of dogmatic theology. (Cheers.) The distinguished Principal had, after saying so much about the inefficiency of our theological training, found it necessary to pay the body of the house a few compliments. They stood forth somewhat in the shape of a practical protest against his line of argument, the men of the Disruption, by their countenances in this Assembly, stood forth a little in the way of a practical protest against its being supposed that the means of their theological training was deficient. But Dr Cunningham had said that, while no doubt they had done well, they might have done a great deal better. He (Mr Gray) would tell them what was passing through his mind when this remark was made. He could not help feeling that the thing mainly wanted to make them do a great deal better, was more of the grace of God. He begged to make a remark, not in the least for the purpose of raising any prejudice against the opposite argument, but he must say, that it was his impression, that rather too much importance had been attached by their friends on the other side to mere human instrumentality, and that portion of it which is to be found in the divinity hall. Of course he knew well that it was the farthest thing possible from the learned professors to ascribe anything to their own instrumentality; they loved and desired to acknowledge the grace of God as much as he did; but still it must be borne in mind, that it was not the mere hall that made the minister. He believed that the Christian minister was often made by the holy Christian parent, and that some of the best of his qualifications had been secured to him in the Sabbath evening class, around the domestic fireside, and by instruction in Christian truth, from day to day, from the lips of those who gave him birth. He believed that, even after the youth had become a student by profession,-after he had declared himself to be turning his eyes towards the ministry,- much was done for him while attending the divinity hall by the godly minister, if he had one, by the Sabbath school instructions in which he might take a part; much by the prayer-meetings, and much by the gospel influences which surround him down in the country, as well as up here in Edinburgh; and, he confessed, that he liked the bringing into play of these very influences, they derived a certain measure of power from the very circumstance that he is preparing for the ministry. And it was much better that the minds of the ministry should be formed by the application of a vast variety of influences, than entirely under the influence of one well-prepared and nobly-furnished hot-bed of theology. (Cries of "Vote.") Now, he must say a word in regard to the sufficiency of the number of students attending the divinity hall. It was said that they had two hundred students attending the hall. Now, he was certain that before the Disruption they had double that number. He knew himself that the students at the hall in Aberdeen in one year were one hundred and seventy, and that number, he believed, was the maximum for a long period. Under the former state of things there was a vast attendance at the provincial halls, which produced a much greater number of students than could be expected, were there only one central institution. Dr Cunningham had also said that two hundred students sent forth fifty preachers per annum, Now, he (Mr Gray) would ask him to consider how this was possible. That was assuming that none of the two hundred would die, that none of the two hundred would be rejected in the course of their examinations, and that none of the two hundred might be led to change their minds, and devote themselves to some other profession. He could believe it possible that a fourth part of the two hundred might be licensed every year, but he should have liked exceedingly that returns had been got from Presbyteries as to the numbers they have licensed since the Disruption. He much mistook if the gross number would much exceed thirty every year. It was also stated that the average number of deaths since the Disruption was only twelve or thirteen per annum. Dr Cunningham at once admitted that it was true the average would be more than twenty; but they could easily account for the circumstance of the average having been so small. A very large proportion of the ministers who left the Established Church at the Disruption were young men, and the Church contained at present more young men than ever it did at any previous period of its history. It was admitted, then, that fully twenty preachers would be annually required to occupy the pulpits of Scotland; but were they to throw out of view the fact that there was a constant drain upon us from

U